The Killing Joke interview - Feb. '81
Jaz
Listen, what I'm into isn't hip by your standards - my beliefs, but I don't give a shit about that.
Geordie
Don't believe a word he says.
TC
I didn't know I had any standards.
Jaz
No but... when you get people doing fanzines you always get - this is no offence right - Crass or whatever painted on their backs - I mean those people do fanzines.
TC
Yeah, but these people...
Jaz
Yeah, I know him, I've talked to him, he's alright. But they do, don't they? And they have what's cool and what's not cool whether you like it or not, you know, being the punk Sid Vicious etc. and all that shit. Well I've got nothing to do with all that. We play music that reflects pressure, because that's what I feel, I'm a very intense person. I'm no punk myself, don't get any illusions about it.
TC
It depends on your definition of punk. If you think a punk is some- one who wears a Sid t-shirt etc. That sort of punk is like the music paper mail order person - it's all the same if you're wearing Judas Priest or Sid Vicious. OK, so tell us what you as a group are trying to achieve, if anything?
Jaz
Not a lot. Good times on stage. Youth - It's not something you think about like that - you just do it.
Jaz
Individually we try to achieve different things.
TC
So there's no great idea behind the band, you're working as individuals? Y - That forms the band - the four individual ideas.
TC
When you first started did you find it difficult to get accepted by the people who went to your gigs?
Jaz
We found it difficult, yes. People either like you or they don't and we play for the people who like us.
TC
Yeah, obviously, but if you didn't get more people liking you then you wouldn't be able to carry on.
Jaz
More people is selling records - the more records you sell, the more people you get at a gig.
TC
Do you prefer doing gigs as a live band, or making records?
Jaz
The gigs we do, which might be one in a month or four in a month, those gigs are events. If you gig every week, it's not an event any more, it becomes routine and you're back to square 1. So we just have a few gigs and put all our energy into them. Y - Even so, out of all the gigs we've done, only a few have turned out how we wanted them to.
Jaz
Yeah, I mean you're confronted with a load of wankers half the time, which doesn't make us feel happy so we don't play well. It's the records that make the money.
TC
How did you start to be self-sufficient as a group, where did the money come from?
Jaz
By being nasty and screwing as much money out of every bastard we could find.
TC
What about Island?
Jaz
They served their purpose. Y - We never signed to Island, all we did was sold them the 3 tracks on the 10". We didn't even sell them the rights. They don't own the songs, just the recordings. We sold them to make people aware we existed. Island put ads in the paper and all that.
Jaz
That was fuck all they did what we wanted - got the name out.
TC
Did they think ultimately you would sign to them? Y - They tried to put a few dirty deeds in the contract....
Jaz
But we got it checked over. They're all bastards, you've just got to rip them off. It gave us enough money to bring out the next single. Y - The money we get, we don't spend on ourselves, it goes into the band.
Jaz
We're here now (mixing the album), and that's in a period of about 8 months. In another 8 months we're really going to start doing things.
TC
Do you prefer having your own label as an ideal? Y - It's not an ideal, it's just a logical assumption, you've got complete control. It doesn't matter if you're a band that haven't got any ideas and like people to do it for you. You've got to do it yourself if you want it to work.
Jaz
It's an ideal in one way. We do it so we can control all our art- work, money and everything, so we set up our own company. It's funny if you think about it. Money talks and the only way to do it is use it. Use the environment, 'cos they use you. Y - The only way is to survive. If you don't you're a mug. You've got to rip people off before they rip you off.
TC
Yeah, but who do you want to rip off?
Jaz
You don't want to rip off your tribe, do you? There's a distinction - Marks & Spencers, Woolworths, you know, the norm, establishment if you like. You don't rip off a mate, (laughs), depends what they're like then again. Basic morals. The Killing Joke is more than just a band. We're going to get twice as far as we have done in a short amount of time. And yes, we want to get on Top of the Pops, the lot. Imagine that cunt grinning and saying this is so and so by Killing Joke. I mean we couldn't be pop stars if we wanted to. It's religion, that's something I really want to stir up. I know what I'm talking about there. The church is a fucking joke. I'm into what's beyond that. The occult if you like.
TC
What exactly do you mean when you want to get a tribal feel to your music?
Jaz
We live in a tribe. We've got an alternative reaction to the whole thing. I know Steve Jones, Paul Cook and Rotten. I know what they're like. It's shite. I go for personalities. The way they play their lives is just as important as the way they play their instruments.
TC
But the people like that are just living it out as superstars.
Jaz
Cook is alright. He's got time for you. It's Siouxsie, Severin and Jobson who go to all the hip little parties around London.
TC
So you're opposed to the whole aura of the rock scene?
Jaz
Of course I'm fuckin' opposed to it. Don't you think it's funny people like us can be in a studio like this. They hate it, the idea that a grotty little turd like me could get anywhere near what they're doing. I hate the music business. I like the scene you guys are into - small bands. We went through a lot of shit getting where now. We approach things from a different angle, it might seem a bit unreal to you. We're playing with something completely different.
TC
Don't you think you're in danger of becoming a hip band?
Jaz
Well that would be just funny.
TC
I think it's expected. It's already happening to a certain extent. Killing Joke are "new in thing man".
Jaz
We don't play for those cunts. We've got quite a faithful tribe of idiots who follow us about to all our gigs. We want to make the most of what we've got.
TC
But i think that already you're becoming one of the new in punk rock bands.
Jaz
Well, that's just ignorance, isn't it? Because we don't play 'punk- rock', we just reflect what's happening and endeavour to be honest with ourselves. You can either be a shitty little band doing the circuits week in week out, or you can go through the mangle. The choice is yours. When you're recording you've got to capture the atmosphere, as long as it makes you react to it. I don't mind being in the studio, but I do like gigging.
TC
How did you get your name?
Jaz
You can apply the killing joke to everything. Imagine a soldier in the trenches in WW 1. He's just been told to run over and gain, say another 15ft of land and he knows he's going to die, and he suddenly thinks that there's some fat cunt back in Westminster controlling his life, and he feels a bit of a mug. That feeling is the killing joke. You can relate that to yourselves, because that's what's happening to you. In 3 or 4 years something is going to happen The earth will react. You pump the earth full of shit and in the end it's going to throw up, whether it's an atom bomb or an earthquake. You've got to go down to your roots, You've got to know why it's happening. You can't take any religion seriously these days. Your instincts tell you it's all lies. It's all changing, you know what's happening every 2000 years, the last 2000 have been the age of Pisces, now we're moving into Aquarius. I know, because I worked with the church believe it or not. That's my personal interest. I'm not interested in religion, I'm interested in fact.
TC
It seems a good idea for why we exist.
Jaz
Exactly. Most people, they'll know how a motor car engine works, but they don't know why their heart is ticking. What do you want to call it, God? There's more to it than that. I call it the life force. I don't see life represented in the body.
TC
Why do you think we're alive then?
Jaz
You want to go that deep?
TC
Why not? Instead of asking what your next single is.
Jaz
The big reason. Why should I tell you all that, all I will tell you, when I was with the church, I saw the altar frontals and related the colours to the times of the year, and it related to the Zodiac, which is split up into Fire, Air, Earth and Water. I looked further into it, and the facts come before Christianity. That's what I'm interested in. You know the Freemasons right? They're all rich bastards, high society. They use a form of the occult, the sun, moon and symbols, but they're the people who originally planned the layout of the church. What is behind it is Paganism, which is like, my belief. That is the killing joke, to know that established religion has all been clouded, the truth's not there.
TC
What exactly do you mean by the occult?
Jaz
The science of religion, the natural causes.
TC
What about Gemini's not getting on with Scorpio's, and that kind of thing?
Jaz
That's a load of bollocks, you can get on with any fucker. The proof of that is in the band. All the Zodiac is is measuring where nature was when you were born. The sun and the moon influence the pattern. The moon influences the water, and as we're 90% water therefore it influences us and all the other planets must therefore influence us. I'm on about the absolute science, that's what i believe in, and I don't give a shit whether it's hip or not. I'm sticking by my roots, that's Killing Joke. That's one of the aspects we're about.
TC
So you're going a lot deeper than just being a rock band making money?
Jaz
Yeah, you've got to have your roots.
TC
What about the other members of the band, what are their views on it?
Jaz
That is the whole reason for the band. We're very different people. Youth is a very earthy character, he likes getting pissed and shagging women. I mean, we all do. The church says you mustn't.
TC
Don't you think you're being restrained by the fact that you're a rock band?
Jaz
We're doing what comes naturally to us. We are using our environment. The planet Uranus, and Pluto - uranium and plutonium which make atom bombs. It's all related - look and find the facts.
TC
But they're just related names.
Jaz
But the facts of science are behind it. Look into it yourself. That is why there's going to be mass change in the next 3 years. It's going to affect you, so you've got to know why it's going to happen. Forget the Sex Pistols and what they said. We're about something completely different, which has been bugging me for a long time. The Killing Joke is a state of mind of being aware of what is going on about you.
UPDATED: 11 MAR 08:36 PST 2013